Having emerged from the Amsterdam punk scene in 1979, The Ex have gone on to become one of the most innovative, and ultimately influential bands of their generation. Musically they’ve continued to push boundaries throughout their existence having incorporated elements of jazz, folk and traditional styles from all four corners of the globe.
Last month saw the release of their 25th studio album 27 Passports which by all accounts ranks among the band’s finest to date. Here, the quartet’s newest member, vocalist and guitar player Arnold De Boer – himself a highly respected solo artist in his own right (check out Zea) – talks about the new record, his band’s lasting impact and how being autonomous can be more beneficial for bands than becoming part of the music industry.
Gigwise: You’ve just played a handful of shows in the Netherlands. How was it? Were the new songs received as well as you’d hoped they would be?
Arnold De Boer: It was really nice. We’ve had some good reviews for the album already over here in the Netherlands so the venues were full every night. We sold lots of CDs and LPs at the shows as well which was great. It’s just nice to be playing as a four-piece again with the new album. It’s always exciting when those things come together and people are curious to hear the new songs they’ve read about in reviews. It gives you an extra push or something and it works!
G: 27 Passports is your first album as a four-piece since 2010’s Catch My Shoe. How long did it take to make the record? Was it as long a process as it sounds?
DB: After we made Catch My Shoe we did two collaborative records - Y’Anbessaw Tezeta with Gétatchèw Mèkurya (2012) and Enormous Door with Brass Unbound (2013) - and we put out three 7" records containing new songs over that period. We weren't hanging in the air for five or six years; we just needed to find a time that was right for us all. We started making the album in April and worked for two months full-on, playing at least three times a week. Then in early July we tried them out in front of a live audience before playing another nine shows containing only the new songs. After that we knew they would work as an album so the actual recording process only took three days.
G: Is the title 27 Passports a reference to the European Union?
DB: That was one of the first things our guitarist Andy Moor said. Is this meant to be about 27 countries against one? But that wasn’t the case, not intentionally anyway. There are lots of reasons why it was called that but basically, 27 means “a lot” and we wish everyone all over the world had 27 passports.
G: Musically the album is quite varied in structure, but a lot of the songs go back to the hypnotic post-punk sound from a lot of your earlier records. Was it something you were intentionally conscious of at the time?
DB: The way we made this album was very similar to how we make most of our records. When we’re putting new songs together we tend to play them live before we go into the studio. We usually play around 70 to 80 shows a year so by then, the songs are completely developed for when we go into the studio. We didn’t do that as much this time. We only played ten shows so they were still quite open to a lot of improvisation, which is what we wanted to do this time. So in that way it was very different from the past. We really wanted to capture the openness that we do onstage. We don’t construct the songs fully in every tour window. There’s still a lot of movable parts in our songs now and we want to keep it like that. We like to be able to improvise so that every night the songs will be different. The lyrics are the same and there’s some sort of structure there but at the same time we also leave a lot of space for movement as well.
G: How does the process work? Do the lyrics come before the music or is it the other way round?
DB: When we write songs it’s four people in a room and it reads like a dialogue. Four people communicating on a musical level then somebody comes up with an idea and the others react to it. Our songs evolve like that and out of that. The lyrics are a bit different as I don’t write them in the rehearsal room while we’re finding new melodies and rhythms. Usually I already have ideas and sketches for lyrics so I always carry a pencil in my pocket and write them down. So when we’re working on a new song I scan those ideas and all of a sudden something might appear that works or maybe even a whole set of lyrics that fits really well with the melody of a song. It can sometimes be like that. Of course there is interaction. When we’re working on new songs I’ll go home at the end and carry on working to see how my lyrics fit in with them. Often I already have ideas for melodies so I’ll try stuff out in the rehearsal space and look for ideas in my sketchbook that might fit.
G: Being the newest member of the band having only joined The Ex in 2009, was it difficult slotting into their way of working? Has the dynamic changed at any point since?
DB: I’ve always been more of a solo musician with Zea so when The Ex asked me to join them I was super excited! Mainly because it was the first time I’d ever made music in such an open and democratic way. It sounds a bit weird but I’d never had this level of interaction before when it comes to writing songs and making music. So it was very new but also exciting to be able to work with these three super talented musicians. As soon as I joined in I found I could react almost immediately to what they’d come up with. I didn’t find it difficult. We already knew each other so we clicked straight away. I’d toured with The Ex as Zea and supported them a few times. So we were already friends. I actually learned a lot being able to share the same space, interact and make music with these great people. It’s been a fantastic experience.
G: The Ex have always written about the social and political climate around them. With the rise of right wing politics throughout Europe and America, do you see many parallels between the present and the early 1980s when the band first started? Do you believe such an adverse climate can inspire better art?
DB: It’s hard for me to speak about the early 1980s as I was only four years old when The Ex started. Of course I know all of their albums and the previous singer Jos (Kley) wrote some great lyrics with a strong emphasis on social awareness. For me personally, I’ve always written about the world around me and how it impacts on my life. I think it’s very important to be aware of your surroundings especially when you see the world being completely fucked up on an almost daily basis. All that terrible right wing fascist bullshit happening around me. I prefer the question mark over the exclamation mark. So I’m not that eager to put my own political viewpoint across in a way that could be seen as telling people what to do or how to think. I’d prefer people to think so the question mark is more important for me in that way. I can’t ignore the fact we get that kind of reaction because in The Ex we make the songs as a band with the four of us. So my lyrics are not 100% deeply personal in an emotional sense that would only attach to me. I do that with my own songs when I play solo but when I’m writing with The Ex I tend to write lyrics that also connect with the other three members of the band. For example, with Andy being English and English being the native tongue of The Ex – it’s the language we always speak as a band – so the lyrics become part of who we are and what we talk about. When I write something, particularly lyrics, if I feel they don’t connect at all I won’t use them for a song with The Ex. My lyrics have always been a reaction to what I see and what’s happening in the world and the questions I ask.
G: Your live shows are always very loose and improvised, but has there ever been a temptation to go back and play a particular album from your catalogue in full? Particularly as your fanbase spreads so many different eras and generations.
DB: We do get people from the audience shouting for their favourite songs but we don’t do that, no. We don’t play old songs or albums. We’re not a nostalgia band. We always want to make new songs, make new music with new ways of working. We’re always coming up with new ideas which is why we’re still here, otherwise we’d be really bored. That’s why The Ex have been around for almost forty years. We’ve never gotten into a formula of making the same record twice or playing old songs. It might be fun for some bands in a certain context to maybe take one old song and do something new with it. But not for us. We always want to play our new songs because at the moment, we think they’re the best songs we have. So we want to play them.
G: Has there ever been a point where The Ex have thought about making a record in a more structured, song-based sense?
DB: I think the album we made with Gétatchèw Mèkurya was completely different for us compared to making a normal Ex album. Mainly because Gétatchèw was leading the songs so we had to work in a very different way when it came to structure and melody. The beat, the story, the production around his saxophone playing and the way we followed everything was 100% different to anything we’d ever done before when it came to constructing songs. Still it worked because Gétatchèw was also improvising and open in his playing. He only knew about ten English words and we knew hardly any Amharic words so communication wasn’t that easy. So we had to find different ways of communicating to make the song structures fit the melodies then record them. That was a totally different story to anything we’d experienced previously.
G: Do you have any other collaborations lined up in the future?
DB: We’ve been working with Fendika who are also musicians from Ethiopia. Obviously Gétatchèw passed away last year and we really miss him, but we played with Fendika earlier this year, which was great. Right now, the focus is on the new album. Sometimes things can happen where we need people to collaborate with us. We’re always open to meeting and working with new people. We’ve played festivals before with other musicians and there’s been a connection that might result in us working together at some point. But there’s no agenda for that. There’s no marketing plan for these kind of things. They’re all based on sharing a similar direction and love for music so if there is that connection its possible something could happen. It’s always been like that.
G: Andy Moor’s photos and artwork have played a prominent part in the presentation of your records and live shows for a long time. Do you consider that to be as important as the music?
DB: It’s definitely the music that always comes first. Of course Andy makes some amazing pictures but again it comes back to what I was saying earlier about whether there’s a connection between that and the music. If it works together they’ll be combined. Being a musician – and I think I speak for the four of us – it’s important to focus on the music first and foremost. When you focus on the music it’s quite hard to think about something else. So when we have an album ready we all of a sudden look at each other and say now we need to make artwork! Of course we all have ideas but it’s amazing to have Andy in the band who makes these incredible pictures. We think about it and know it is important but the fact we haven’t made a music video for eight years also says something about it not being in the front of our heads. We recently recorded a new video for this record actually!
G: Bearing all that in mind, will there be another Ex album in the future? Do you ever see the band not existing?
DB: That’s hard to say of course. I can’t see it stopping. I think that would be impossible. I always think things will go on forever and especially music, which in itself has an endless character. It’s infinite in all directions somehow. What you feel when you make music. You do it with new songs and a new album, especially when you play them live on stage. It gives it some form of infinite character. We don’t have a manager so there is no management plan. There’s no marketing idea or script for us coming back together after five years and cashing in either. Those are the kind of things we don’t think about. We’re quite open minded but also focused when it comes to music and focus is everything these days. So it’s hard to envisage The Ex not existing.
G: Most people in the UK probably became aware of The Ex through their association with Crass in the 1980s. Why do you think the DIY squat scene has filtered away in the UK yet remains as vibrant as it ever was in the Netherlands?
DB: The DIY squat punk scene was super strong in the 1980s from what I’ve heard and read. In Amsterdam it wasn’t something that just happened. It wasn’t a bubble. When I first moved there with my band we played a lot of squat gigs. I think people have been fed up for a long time with being told what to do and where to go. Whereas this scene is autonomous. It did actually disappear for a while as squatting was forbidden at one point and it’s only as recent as last year that young kids started squatting again. Mainly because the housing situation in Amsterdam is absurd. The house prices are obscene. So it’s a good sign that the laws have been relaxed and squatters won’t end up in jail, even after eviction. Of course the DIY squat scene didn’t start with the punks in the 1980s. It already existed in the sixties. Amsterdam in particular had a vibrant squat scene. The Paradiso, which is quite a well-known music venue was mostly inhabited by squatters throughout the sixties. If you go back even further in time independent grassroots politics has always been prevalent in music and the arts. People that want to be free from any kind of power structure. That idea is very old. I think it’s from all times throughout history. On the surface level we see lots of bullshit happening every day. Underneath that lies a stream of people that want to be independent and if you catch the flow of that stream you’ll always find people in any part of the world who have the same kind of mindset which you can exchange and work with. That’s the network which can keep you alive.
G: You’re touring again in May and June including six shows in the UK. Will there be any more live dates beyond that? Any festivals later in the summer?
DB: After we play the UK we’re planning on going to Germany and also doing a festival in Italy I think. Basically with the new album we don’t want to go too far from home. Before this tour we played in Istanbul which was quite special. There’s another side to it for us. It’s not just about playing a rock show for an interested audience. It’s also about meeting and talking to people. Exchanging ideas wherever we play. So it’s much more than just entertainment. We always try to play the USA every couple of years. Canada as well, and we’ve also had invitations from South America. Once we’ve got used to playing the new album we’ll cross more borders. And your solo work.
G: Will there be any new music from Zea in the foreseeable future?
DB: For me, both Zea and The Ex are complimentary but I definitely have a lot of ideas for songs that I make as a solo artist using electronics or just acoustically. Very personal songs like my last album, which was all in Frisian, my first language. That was totally different from The Ex. It’s something I always want to do because that personal side opens another door in the music building for me. Whereas playing with The Ex is a different room. The interaction is much noisier yet it’s also very easy to combine in a way because I feel the urge to do both. So I can open both doors and step into one room then step into the other. I think the same goes for the others. Terrie (Hessels) is doing lots of improvised pieces with poets and saxophone players. Andy has a few other projects going on like his collaborations with John Butcher and Anne-James Chaton. That’s also something they really want to do. It also gives you new inspiration. Playing with other musicians also makes it very nice to come back to the band again. The variation can also be very inspiring.
G: Are there any new artists or even bands you’ve played with you’d recommend Gigwise and its readers should check out?
DB: There’s one band from France that we’re all big fans of. They’re called Api Uiz and you should really check them out. They’ve been going for a while but don’t really play live that much. Also Massicot from Switzerland are another band we really like. They put out a ten-inch on Harbinger Sound a couple of years ago which is great. This week we played with a band from Poland called Kurws. They were fantastic. When we come to the UK in June we’re looking forward to playing with a band called Big Joanie. I think they’re only doing the Brighton and London shows with us and we haven’t seen them live yet, but we really like what we’ve heard on Bandcamp.
G: What advice would you give to new bands just starting out?
DB: Don’t do anything with contracts or managers, all that stuff. Don’t take any music management courses or any of that bullshit. Start setting up shows yourself and get a few extra beds so you can have the bands sleep at your house. Just find a connection with other bands, like-minded people then find a space, a pub or even a garage where you can put on shows. Invite bands that you like from other countries and become a station. An underground railway network of music. Focus is the most difficult thing because there are always distractions like social media for example. Focus on your own ideas and find connections through direct human interaction. Hang out with people and set up shows that way. Cook food for those bands when you have them over. Give them a bed for the night and you’ll find most bands will do the same for you. Travelling from city to city sleeping on each other’s floors while playing the shows they set up. Keep the money you make for recording costs etc. But then you don’t really need a lot of money. Drive yourselves on tour and keep it very simple. If you become part of this underground network the possibilities are endless. You can travel really far. I’ve played around 40 different countries across the world just by following this way of working. I’ve played in Ghana, played in Ethiopia, Mexico, Brazil, Turkey… lots of places I wouldn’t normally be able to go. It takes a while but slowly you can build up those contacts and eventually travel the world playing your music. It takes time and dedication and focus, of course. But if you be your own boss nobody can pull the plug. Out of your band, out of your music or out of your album.
G: While social media has been beneficial for artists getting their music out there, do you think it’s made a lot of them complacent?
DB: Certainly in terms of human interaction as you just mentioned? I think the death of human interaction in music started at least ten years ago thanks to this weird thing called MySpace. It was really set up for bands, and you saw people being busy all day getting other bands to become their friends yet there was nothing. There wasn’t even air. Just absolutely nothing. Yet people thought they could go on tour once they had a certain number of MySpace friends and it didn’t work. Because you need direct interaction between people to really like each other’s music and feel a connection. Then you really want to do something for somebody else because you know somehow you’ll get it back through the underground karma system of helping each other out. Setting up shows for one another because you not only like each other’s music, but you also like each other personally. So you need analogue interaction otherwise it’s not working.
Words: Dom Gourlay
