Welcome to a new column in association with the wonderful Moving The Needle, the brand new charity helping women of all ethnicities and backgrounds to navigate the music industry and develop their careers - tutoring them as they go. In this column, we meet the amazing people on its board!
Every fortnight, Hannah Browne will be meeting women, fielding conversations between them and delivering some white hot advice on how to move the needle that is gender equality within the music industry.
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“I made myself known, asked a lot of questions, and kind of made a bit of nuisance of myself…” says Karen Emmanuel (CEO of Key Production Group), as herself, Julie Weir (Label Head of Music For Nations at Sony Music Group) and I connect via a Zoom call to discuss their journey to senior positions in the music industry “…But only in such a way that people knew I was interested, bright, and able to take on anything that was thrown at me” she subsists.
From the early moments of our conversation, it’s clear that navigating the music industry has been a minefield from 30+ years ago until now, not helped by the lapse in education and awareness of the opportunities that are available for women. That is where Moving The Needle comes in. A support group that offers mentorship and workshops, the project aims to educate and inform early conversations to increase the pipeline of young women who come into the industry at entry-level roles to reach executive positions.
“I had no idea where to go” Karen continues, “I was told that the only way for a woman to move through the industry was to be a secretary or a PA. I didn’t know about the types of jobs in the music industry”. Julie relates to Karen’s journey and jokes about the prospect of going to the career’s office in her small Northern hometown. “I walked in and said I wanted to do something creative in the music industry… surrounded by people who had only ever had the option of working for steelworks and pubs”.
After studying at University in Salford, Julie wrote for her university’s magazine before graduating and working in a record store in Leeds. “At that time, a woman in music, or even a woman in a record shop, were like unicorns - we were rare beasts back then.” Upon moving to London for a Masters degree in Film and Media - or, to Julie’s admission, to be closer to the hub of the music business - she began working for independent labels, before setting up her own: Visible Noise, where she signed and developed the formative years of artists such as Bring Me The Horizon. After 20+ years, Julie moved to Sony, where she resides today. “It’s been steppingstones – a logical, if slightly wonky route”, she says.
With similar personalities but differing life experiences, Karen and Julie both align on the value of having built a large network. “It’s brilliant for going out and having a drink…” Julie laughs, “…but it’s crucial for learning, we can’t be siloed. The more you learn the more you know, then the better equipped you are to be in the industry. We don’t just move in one direction; we move and grow in multiple directions”. Karen adds, “and that way, you don’t get left behind. I networked from the second I got my foot in the door”.
While the music industry is a current focus, Moving The Needle has a wider ambition to address representational issues across different creative industries. “One of the things we want to do is to stop women falling out of the industry at a certain age. Maternity and Paternity Leave is getting better, but women are always the primary caregivers”. Julie notes that whilst this may be a personal choice, it is a worry nonetheless. “When people get to a certain age and they’ve got great life experience, it’s doing themselves a disservice to drop out. It’s a support network issue, I think.”
Poignantly, there has been no better time for employers to become familiar with the notion of flexible working than the Covid-19 pandemic. “It has enabled people to prove that they can work staggered hours from home, whereas women once felt that they were forced out because they can’t have that flexibility,” says Karen.
In 2017, the Government Report on Menopause found that menopausal women are the fastest-growing workforce demographic, which Karen is eager to discuss in pertinence to the recently aired Channel 4 documentary: Davina McCall: Sex, Myth and the Menopause, which received wide acclaim for exposing the shortcomings and taboos that have long surrounding women’s health. “Half the population are going to go through it, so everyone needs to know about it. There’s a lot of non-understanding and crap that comes with it. Until people realise the 30-something symptoms that come with it and give their mothers, sisters, girlfriends and such like the flexibility, women could continue to feel pushed out”.
The drive to improve representation leans into clichés and stereotypes, but Julie believes that the tide is starting to turn. “The level of sexist joking has been ironically ‘hilarious’ in the music industry,” she says. “But now, times have changed, and I think we need to educate about humour to those who are from a different generation; it’s very 1974”. In a year where Little Britain and episodes of Fawlty Towers were pulled from online platforms, Julie continues: “Humour can come from places of reference that are outdated. If we have to move, learn and continually change, everyone should”.
Our conversation develops to deliberate how to harness what women bring to the table with confidence and support in the face of unconscious bias. I note that women can feel pressure when owning their voice, as we can often be considered as contrasting a gendered assumption of how one should carry themselves. “Certainly, I had to be what would be considered assertive for a man, which is either pushy or bossy in a woman, and therefore grew a reputation for being ‘fearsome’,” says Karen. I felt that I had to establish my mark by being uncompromising and a tough negotiator, ultimately forcing my way until such a time that people respected me and my knowledge”. Julie adds “saying I’m a woman was previously considered a point of weakness. I didn’t haven’t anyone to talk to or share my experiences with.”
We soon loop back to the importance of education. “We believe that you have to start the beginning to get women into all walks of the music industry,” Karen says. “There are certain jobs that women tend to gravitate towards, such as PR and marketing, but in the early days, I had no idea you could be a producer or a tour manager. There’s a need to highlight the huge range of jobs that are available and encourage young women to get into those jobs.”
This exchange extends to the male-dominated line-ups of major festivals. “There are women artists and female bands who don’t get visibility” Karen continues. “But it trickles back down - if all of the booking agents and A&Rs are male, there is a huge bias and diversity imbalance all around”. Discussing the risk of quota filling, Julie adds, “The tokenism makes the discussion so much worse, and it is a massive worry. We need to make these opportunities a reality, so people don’t feel their ambitions are just a dream. It’s about encouraging people to follow their heart and give them the support on both the musical side and the industry side”.
Rounding off our discussion, we lean on allyship for offering some of the most effective change for those who are underrepresented. “We want young men to realise the importance of giving everyone equal opportunities in life too. It’s not about man-bashing or fighting differences but working together and helping each other. We just need to readdress everything that’s been unbalanced for a long time with the help of everyone around us. It should be everyone in music, people supporting people; it doesn’t matter what gender you are to elevate those who aren’t at the level they should be”.
Rounding off our discussion Julie says “[Karen and I] are here through tenacity, bloody-mindedness, and the skin of our teeth, to be quite honest, but we need to point out that this is a legitimate industry. We’re genuinely wanting to see people come in into this industry because we need those people. We need the next generation of executives of all persuasions; things that can happen when we work together on mass.”
Moving The Needle are generating plans and next steps in its mission to generate a gender-balanced UK music industry. To do this, they want to get to know YOU. Please fill in a brief survey that will help MTN achieve its vision! https://www.mtnnow.com/survey.
